little. yellow. different. A weblog by Ernie Hsiung

Rainbow Nation and Gay Asian Male Stereotypes

From Current: Rainbow Nation, a five minute “pod” on stereotypes and Gay Asian males.

That’s a way to get a response from me; create a video that starts out with the line, “Asian men have a lot of diseases [and] small penises.”

Gimmicky way to start off a documentary aside, some interesting points are raised by this video: stereotypes of Gay Asian men exist - that they’re skinny, smooth, only date white guys and that they are effeminate and thus passive. The pod also asserts that non-Asians feel that the stereotypes of Asians are justified because that’s all they see when they walk around in the Castro on go on chat rooms.

Usually it’s easy to write my own personal opinions on the matter, but for this post I’m having a strangely difficult time on this one. Maybe it’s because I’m definitely not a gay Asian stereotype - I’m definitely NOT skinny, I can’t dress for shit (ask my friend Royce; he’ll tell you stories) and I don’t think I’m THAT effeminate (feel free to shoot me down if I assume wrong.) While fighting stereotypes sound like a noble thing, when you’re coming out of the closet you WANT to fit in somewhere, be in a tribe, look and act like everyone else as a way to not feel ostracized. I had huge self-esteem issues where I’ve felt like the only way I could ever find a boyfriend is if I were to somehow magically lose fifty pounds and dress in DKNY, because that’s the only thing I saw - horrible, but true. As a result, I hung out with the bear subculture for a while, but that didn’t make things any better - an experience with discrimination there is one of the reasons why I started 8Asians.

Now I’m a little older and I know that if someone is trying so hard to live up to a certain label that they’re not really worth my effort anyway. Dating is still a challenge but if someone is not into me, then their bad. Gaysians, what are your experiences?

Well, I’m not a gaysian, but I’ll comment anyway.

I feel kind of sheltered, but I’m not sure what I’m sheltered from — the Castro? I mean, watching this feels like watching a video about how black guys are not only hung like horses but also enjoy watermelon and fried chicken. It floors me that people actually think this way in real life and are willing to admit it on camera. The way the sound bites are framed, it’s hard to tell if these guys were asked to talk about stereotypes they’d heard, or stereotypes they actually believe.

My unfavorite part is when the femmy guy with The Lisp is talking about how gay men prefer real manly men. People always hate their own “flaws” the most when they appear in others.

Well that comment is going to totally put me on a tangent rant.

Actually black guys DO like watermelon and fried chicken. It always baffles me why some black people take offense to that statement. Just because WHO DOESN’T LOVE FRIED CHICKEN AND WATERMELON?! Almost everyone I know, no matter the race, loves fried chicken and watermelon.

A black coworker of mine was offended that a white coworker said something about fried chicken, he was trying to equate it to Asians and he said “It’s like saying Asians like rice!” To which me and another Asian coworker piped up, “We do like rice.”

Another time, same black coworker, after an Indian food luncheon said “Oh we should have an African American luncheon”. To which my non-PC boss said “What is that? Fried Chicken?” Black coworker’s eyes grew large while the rest of us laughed our ass off and my boss was like “Oh my god! Did I say something wrong?!” He explained why it was offensive to him then my boss asked “so what IS African-American food?” And he replied “…fried chicken. and collared greens and other stuff!” Then my boss said in a confused voice “…so it IS fried chicken?”

I’ve always found that annoying though. Black people are wayyyyyyy to sensitive about racial issues. If you told a hispanic guy that he probably likes to eat refried beans, then he’d probably shrug and agree (or possibly disagree) with you. Telling a black guy he probably likes to eat fried chicken, he’ll take that as a personal attack.

And the funniest part is they feel it’s fine to get all racial with other races. In my opinion, either ACTUALLY fight racism (that means fight all racism, not fight racism against your own race, and perpetuate racism of other races) or man up and grow a thicker skin and only fight significant cases of racism.

But onto what the actual video itself. The most poignant point is made by one of the guys there. Even Gaysians don’t want other Gaysains. That’s really saying something. It’s like the same case as above. If you want to complain about how people don’t respect you or find you attractive cuz you’re Asian, then you better not be writing off your own race, which it seems a lot of gay Asians do.

Ernie:

Remember that conversation we had in my car when I was helping you move up to the city the first time? The conversation where I said that I found myself in the position of being a gay guy who can’t stand a great deal of the gay community? This video nails a number of reasons why.

Before moving to california, I was in atlanta for many years, and there, the big issue was racism towards african americans by the established, white gay men. It would appear that wherever you go, sadly, institutional racism will still be there, just take on a different form.

I used to get so angry at my community for displaying such ugly, narrow-minded opinions. But I guess I am too old, too grumpy, and too over it to feel anything but pity for these fools now.

Can we just raze the Castro and start over?

Well I have to say the small penis thing is pretty true. I like asian guys and my experiences with them have confirmed that stereotype. Also, when visiting Asia, the guide books literally say, bring your own condoms as asian condoms are notoriously small for foreigners (Try the letsogo! or Lonely Planet series). Unlike most men, I actually prefer a penis that is a little smaller than average, probably 4 to 5.5 inches. Just my thoughts and observations.

First I’d like to say that Little_Yellow_Different is my all time favorite blogg. It is always good for a laugh but it also gives my brain some thought-food too. I am Asian, I am gay and the Rainbow Nation video is stating exactly what I am experiencing on a daily basis. Not only gay men think that Asian men are effeminate, submissive and are cursed with a short penis, the whole fucking world believes in these cliches. Everytime I had sex with a caucasian guy, he would comment on my penis size and every time I lost my hard on because it is so frustrating to see how strong and persistent stereotypes are. I am sure that gay men are more focused on penis size than heterosexuals, but I have slept with guys who had tiny penises and I don’t make assumptions about the whole Italian, Jewish, Irish or German race (do I sound like a complete slut or what?). A couple of years ago I saw a great compilaton of gay asian themed short films called `Banana Queers’ (http://global.yesasia.com/en/PrdDept.aspx/code-w/section-videos/pid-1002523098/). After watching it I was depressed for a week because I realised that all assumptions of how non-asian-gays perceived me, were actually true. I had hoped that most people would have emancipated themselves from the all too easy stereotypes of the non-sexual, effeminate Asian male, but no, the different short films only restated what I feared, I was seen as a walking joke. I am not at the point where Eddie is, I still care about what people think of me and I stil have the urge to dismantle the Gay Asian Stereotype but some of the comments in the Rainbow Nation vid ring true, a lot of Asians don’t like other Asians. One of the short films in the Banana Queers collection, tells the story of a potato queen (an Asian guy who exclusively dates white guys, for those of you who are not familiar with gasian lingo) who is cured of his Caucasian fetish by a hot night with his Asian neighbor. I actually think thats a good way to approach it. I believe that a lot of Asian guys are not attracted to other Asians because they don’t like themselves. Their self image is distorted by society (like mine since I grew up in an all white neighborhood) and the media (like mine, since I used to think that guys in GQ were the epitome of male beauty). But it is ok to be Asian and it is ok to be smooth and to have straight dark hair. At this point in my life I am trying not to compare myself with white guys but to be happy with what I have. As a group we have to overcome the stereotypes that are cemented in the minds of the public, as individuals we have to fight against internalizing these stereotypes and start to respect and love ourselves. Keep on blogging Eddie

Wow. Rarely do you see such honest, outward displays of bigotry. Especially the red headed white guy. Everytime they cut back to him he would say something worse and more ignorant than the last time.

I wonder if you asked these same people about gay black or gay Latino stereotypes if they would be as honest.

Having been there a few times, I guess I mistakenly thought that San Francisco was much more tolerant with regard to race. It turns out it’s exactly the same as here (Chicago) and NYC I suspect.

I am a half Latin female. I wonder if they would ask me how many children I have and if I am on public assistance?

I have dated three Asians. Two were “average” sized and one did have a smaller penis. Ironically, the smaller penis guy was the best lover of the bunch.

I know a gay Asian man at work. I wish I knew him well enough to say “hey, do you like to date other Asian men?” No good way to work that into a converstation….

hi ernie

first time poster, long time [sporadic] reader. i’m “gaysian”, and i don’t fit entirely into the stereotypes (physically and culturally) listed in the podcast, neither do i fit into mainstream gay culture anyway. i’m tall-ish, born in france, of vietnamese/japanese/chinese blood, have facial hair, white washed, am uh, “straight-acting” (weird i know..), listen to what the mainstream would consider obscure forms of art rock and the glichier side of electronic music, am a geek overall, speak german, and.. i’m attracted to asians.

i’ve had asian dates, one bad experience, the rest ok. i probably would not have been able to have done so a few years ago, when i still wasnt confident about being gay (and asian, and perhaps still am but workin on it) and my overall physical image. to be honest, i find it hard to find “interesting” asians anyway, those who aren’t just intested in material culture 24×7 and gossip. and so on an overall level, i can see why there is a general white-centric prejudice about gaysians. it’s true, many of the more visible ones are effeminate, and this stereotype gets propagated extensively in the north american media, and basically has sinked into the collective consciousness as the ONLY kind of asian there is, apparently. so i have to admit i don’t like “those kind” of asians either, sexually speaking, ignorantly assuming too that this was the ONLY kind of asian out there, and so i looked towards the white man. mostly because i wasn’t comfortable with my sexuality at the time, but because i couldn’t find other inspiring gay asian role models, or just more masculine looking asian men, which do exist, but i would say they are just fewer in between, especially in north america. i can certainly name a few handsome looking asian men, no problem.

i’m not a potatoqueen, not exclusive to any race, i’ve dated blacks and asians and hispanics, but personally, i’ve had better relationship experiences with whites, mostly artist types, the type whom i identify with the most.

i think this case of racial/sexual discrimination has a lot to do with media and exposure too. like in the podcast, they were basically saying how there aren’t really any masculine images of asian men, not enough anyway to counterbalance the public (gay) opinion. my interest in asian men started when i started visiting this gay asian personals site (fridae). at first, i was hoping that by loggin onto that website, i would find white guys who were attracted to asians (not necessarily ricequeens). but as i logged onto the site more and more, i started recognizing a certain pattern of asians that got me excited - i guess they would be described loosely, as the “g-men” type; square features, nice jaw, and facial hair, which you never thought asians could have (ironically, since it was ok for the old master in kung-fu movies to have it, or the samurais (very hot by the way, heh). a handsome asian man to me for instance would be actor Tadanobu Asano. A strong masculine yet serene look, and neither macho. great.

so i have to say that my attraction to asians is mostly restricted to the particular type i described above. yet that doesn’t restrict me from having gaysian friends of the stereotypical kind, thought, personally, they kind of get on my nerves, lol, but in the same way stereotypical (white, black, hispanic, etc) queeny fags get on my nerves, so it’s not an asian thing in this case. heh

in terms of how exposure can influence your sexual interest in a racial type, i can relate my own experience. for instance, i was working in africa for 9 months, and prior to my stay, i was not at all interested in black men. as an ignorant asian, i used to think they just looked all the same, the way people may think about asians all looking the same (in a bad way). but gradually, because of my isolation and constant exposure to african men around me (and perhaps sexual frustration, lol), i started to develop an eye, and a genuine sexual interest in them.. long story short, my sexual interest in black men hasn’t reversed since my return in 2002. and i’m glad for that.

so in the same vein, i would be interested in living somewhere in asia for a time (which i have never done), and see where that goes. which i don’t think won’t go much to turning my heads to asians, since i’m already attracted to them. just not the mainstream stereotype.

i can go on much longer about this “why gaysians are frowned upon” topic. i think Ernie, you should flesh out your post, i’m sure you got a lot of things to say about it? some things to dig into would be why other gaysians won’t or cannot think of dating other asians. again, the interviews in the podcast were quite sad (so so bad!) to hear, but i also think they just interviewed lame american homos anyway who were just good fodder! lol. a more indepth documentary would have been better (to post too perhaps). all in all, i think the best thing to do as a gaysian, would be to try and break those stereotypes.

+1 Ernie

ps. sorry for typos in advance

just because you’re gay doesn’t make you intelligent, open-minded or free of prejudice. these people are your gay equivalent of ignorant outer-suburbanites

just one question here: i don’t understand the men here who say that they don’t like “smooth” men, since but for the bears, so many gay (and some straight) men are waxing themselves silly. what gives? if it’s naturally smooth, it’s unattractive?

The small penis stereotype is wrong. Or maybe I’ve just never seen many white, black or hispanic ones … lately.

A second point. Just as Asians may struggle with stereotypes, so do those who prefer Asian men. I can’t say how many times I have been backed into a corner to explain myself whenever it becomes known that I have dated mostly Asians since arriving in SF. You date mostly white guys, but then object when one finds you attractive because he has also found other Asians attractive? Huh?

I think that video clip was a bit of a set-up for the people being interviewed. Stereotypes exist and there is some truth to all stereotypes.

It’s perfectly allright to have a preference; preference for tall men, thin men, men with blonde hair and mustaches, preppy men, bear men, Hispanic men, Asian men. It’s perfectly allright to be attracted to a particular type of man. It’s about personal preference and choice. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Watching this video, I’m reminded very strongly of the “model minority myth:” The idea, one half of a binary, that all asians are smart, hard-working, well-behaved, high-achieving, and, of course, dorky and non-threatening. The idea that all asians are passive, effeminate bottoms with small cocks seems like an attempt to translate this stereotype into sexual terms - especially as the other side of the stereotype, the negative ‘model’ which completes the binary, ascribes huge cocks to latinos and blacks.

One theme of this video struck me as particularly salient - the ‘observation’ that most Asians don’t seem interested in dating other Asians. Whether this is objectively true or not, it has been born out in my experience. If my subjective experience is, in fact, consistent with the objective statistics, it would suggest that these negative sexual stereotypes are actively internalized by members of the Asian community.

Of course, its really tough to come to anything other than anecdotal conclusions without the benefit of hard numbers realized from well-thought-out surveys.

baaaaarf

this video is so highly offensive! but thought provoking. thank you.

I am speechless! Ok, maybe not as speechless since I have to share my thoughts. Where the hell did RN find the main dude? Is he even gay?

My brother is gaysian and has a group of close gay friends (20 – 30 of them); mostly Asian, some Latino, and some White. I am the unofficial “fag hag” of the group and I see these people at least twice a month. Granted I have never seen anyone of them naked so cannot comment on the size of their manhood. But I can tell you the following:

You won’t know that 1/2 of them were gay just by looking at them.
Some of the Asians are over 6 feet tall with a good build (around 160 lbs) while some of the non-Asian guys were no more than 5’5”.
Many of them are sticky rice while there are some mixed couples. I cannot find the stereotype that RN portraits in its supposed documentary.

Aaah! It frustrates me that people can be such bigots!

Damn, ernie; I hope you don’t have to deal with any of this shit. You should be famous and drowning in the gay equivalent of pussy.

- a fan

I guess there are always bigotry and ignorant everywhere one goes. As an 18 years old male, I find this video to be disturbing. Will I have to endure this when I finally be out in the real world *I am still in college & college culture is quite different than real life. I hope that this view would change as I get older. Maybe my generation is different than the older crowd. We will see…

Personally I haven’t experience any bigotry & I somewhat fit the stereotypes. The bigotry I find are straight asians who find me to be weird and non-asian.Also, I could care less if someone wants to date me or not because I am Asian. It his preference not mine. It is he who has the problem.

Their loss. Bleh. Next.

This is a such a complicated issue and I’m glad you’re creating a space for it, Ernie. I’m not sure how deep I can get into this as a blog comment, but I wanted to share a few thoughts since the issue is important to me as a gay asian male. At the base of this issue is racism. Then, there’s the question of how racism is supported by dominating systems. It is these faulty, dominating systems that support and allow racist attitudes to thrive. These systems are so ubiquitous that it’s hard to realize how intimately involved everyone is, so the fact that it’s invisible to all of us makes it incredibly difficult to introduce change. I was reminded of this during a conversation with a friend about attraction. It was natural, she said, for her to prefer white males over Asian or Hispanic males. I hesitated greatly before admitting that I also prefer white males. It’s only recently that my initial hesitancy has become clear to me, now that I realize that she and I are both part of a system that constructs these attitudes. My huge conflict with her comment was the implication that it was somehow unnatural for me to prefer white guys, and moreover, my judgments of her racism against asian males pointed right back at me, of which being an asian myself basically made me self-implode! But I’ve come to understand that both her comment and my guilt has to do with that fact that racism is part of a system that everyone is a part of. It’s not some individual characteristic that someone has. It’s a sort of game that we are all unwillingly involved in. Had she or I been born and raised under different dominating cultural conditions (a different sort of “game”), we both might have said, “I prefer asian males over white males.” Now, the point of all this isn’t to paint an impenetrable dominating system, but that if we realize that we are all a part of this, we can create and seek alternative systems that can keep out the negative elements of dominating culture, such as racist comments against asian males, and create systems and spaces where gay asian males can feel accepted and empowered. This blog is a great example of such a space. And though I’ve only come across 8Asians today, it strikes me as another alternative space. Ernie, perhaps another thread would be to see if people can list more of these alternative spaces for gay asian males? Anyway, thanks to everyone for continuing their efforts to help gay asian males, like myself, stay positive and empowered. Cheers.

Ah…Not sure what to say about this film clip. I am a GBM in Canada, and I only date Asian men. I think Asian men are very handsome, butch, and have great cocks! It is hard for me to find Asian men to date, yes, because most Asian men want to date white men only, but I think overall it is changing. Asian men have something most other races do not, I feel, realism. They know how to love in a real way, so I keep looking for my Asian prince:)

I’m in high school, and only recently I’ve discovered an underground gay community (I go to an all-boys Catholic school). First I thought, “Hey! Cool! People can finally accept me for myself!” Boyyyy was I wrong. I find it shocking that, even within the gay community, people are so uptight about labels and stereotypes. Just because I’m Chinese all the white guys assume that I’m submissive, that I squeal and cry in bed like those astonishingly effeminate characters in those Hentai movies. Oh, and exotic - suddenly sex with an asian man becomes a sacred phoenix-dragon ritual. The gaysians won’t even look at other gaysians - their rationale is that white people simply have a nicer body type, but of COURSE their willing to date an asian guy if he has “white features.” And the only people who actually take an interest in gaysians are those with incredibly racist pick-up lines, par example “I’m not normally into Chinese guys, BUT in your case…” Hello? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? I’m seriously beginning to wonder if teenaged boys are capable of thinking outside of labels - or is that something that sticks with us?

LOL!
Only Asians who grew up in the USA are like this… ALL Asian people are VERY CLANISH people, meaning they are very strict with mixing and having cultures other than their own. Even Asians among Asians rarely mingle if their cultures are not the same. LOL intermarriage in ASIA itself is very RARE! About Asian gay guys dating only Caucasian thats sort of like funny because that only happens in the USA! Try going to Japan for example, and see that it is VERY VERY VERY VERY Rare to find an interracial couple there, more so in the conservative countries of China and Korea. And it is not POLITICALLY CORRECT to say ASIAN GAY MEN! It should be AMERICAN-ASIAN GAY MEN!