little. yellow. different. A weblog by Ernie Hsiung

Running With The Bears

My not-so-secret secret is the following: I’ve always felt a little out of place with the gay community. My close friends in college were all straight, and when I had come out of the closet my last year of college I guess I expected this gay welcoming committee where I would instantly have a gay social network and have gay friends and go on gay dates. For a bunch of different reasons [read: low self-esteem] that didn’t happen, and ever since I’ve always been a little envious if I see a pack of gays in the Castro.

(You know what I mean when I say “a pack of gays,” right? Like, the group of 5-12 gay men that you see during Halloween or the Gay Pride parade and they have matching costumes or outfits? And half of them are drunk or high or breaking up with each other on their cellphones, and they’re all catty and shit so you turn to your friend to mention that the gay Power Rangers are coming, yet you have that slight pang of wanting just to fit in, if only for a little bit? No? Not at all? Never mind, then.)

As a result of trying to find this gay place to belong, I ended up being involved in the bear sub-culture. I wasn’t necessarily searching for it - I had one friend into the scene, and as a result, I would hang out with his friends, go to the same parties if they were going out, and so on. I’ve become pretty close to a couple of them, but to most people, I’m sure I was just “the token Asian boy, hanging out with the bears.” Fuck it, they don’t know any better. And so what if I’m at a party everyone is drunk or high or making out in the backyard and I feel like the only one not partnered off? Oh well, good times or good stories, I suppose.

So when people told me that I should get a profile on the local classified website bear411.com, saying I would be able to find someone relatively quickly to at least hang out with, I thought, “eh, whatever.” When my application wasn’t accepted the first time, I really thought nothing of it - maybe they’re just behind with their e-mail response times. Then it happened a second time. When it happened a third time, I got pretty irate, but it’s not really my thing to make a big deal about shit like that and maybe he’s just busy or something, and what can I do anyway, since it’s a private site?

It was only after reading the recent backlash against bear411 and reading this post by another gay Asian man who’s had difficulties getting on the same site that, oh shit, there really might BE some discrimination and the guy that runs this site seems to be a general assclown who dream of a perfect gay community are only the ones that he finds sexually attractive. Which is especially ironic since the bear subculture is a result of mainstream gay subculture being unwelcome to them. Ironically, the webmaster of bear411.com has a response for all the flack he’s received so far, but he doesn’t discuss his tendencies to discriminate.

Incidentally, I still feel out of place in the gay community - I’m finding that as far as gay friends are concerned, I’d rather have a fewer amount of very close gay friends than a larger amount of people I know super casually. And if I don’t have another boyfriend until I’m 37, well then, fuck it. Chalk that up to being older and wiser, I guess.

great post! i feel the same way sometimes (gay asian male). though I’ve had a bf for the last 6 yrs, i do wish I had more gay friends … less acquaintenances and actual friends …

You are always going to come across clique-queens, in all parts of the gay community. It just happens that this particularly unpleasant specimen happens to run a personals site. It’s unfortunate but as long as the law doesn’t ban assholes from purchasing domain names there’s not a lot that can be done.
Do you have Gaydar.com in the US or Canada? It’s huge. much more professionally run and if you are looking for bears (or any other gay subculture) they’re really easy to find.
And I’ve been in situations where I’ve had lots of not-so-close gay friends (university) and a handful of much closer ones (now) and I’m much happier now knowing I have people I can rely on rather than people I just go out and get drunk and laid with.
Oh and good luck settling in to your new job, your site is lovely.

David

I’ve tried a few times to sign up for a profile on Bear411 and never succeeded. The interface is so bad that I couldn’t even find out what was going on; I received no notice that my profile had been rejected, let alone a reason.

Honey, Being gay doesn’t give you an automatic out on the racist thing. Us white folks are raised racist. Gay or Straight, we have to face it and deal with it. Some of us do, some of us don’t, and some of us are unconscious about it altogether. I have been blessed with some very strong and loving and amazing friends who continue to show me my own flaws in a way that lets me see just how subtle and insidious racism is, and help me learn ways to address it in myself, in my other friends . White Men are starting to learn thanks to folks like Tim Wise and others, but it’s a slow process. Thank you for pointing it out and calling us on it.

The old and wise reminds me of Socrates, though I am not sure if that is the image you are going for.

I really appreciated your sharing your experiences here on your blog. I know this is an issue that I have struggled with over the years, though I have not had any experience with the group you mentioned. I know that the issue that strikes me as interesting is the notion of a “gay community.” I suppose I have always been perplexed on what that means, since I have never experienced anything that resembles what I conceive of as “community.” I think I need to blog about this a bit as well.

Ernie, Jerry and I have two gay friends that we hang out with casually, and our best friends are straighties. It’s not that we actively avoid other gay people, it’s that when we’ve gone out with other gay couples socially we get so annoyed with the ‘GRRRRL!’s as if we’re best friends. And Dallas gays are the worst because it’s all about fake-n-bake tans, porcelain veneers, blond-tipped bed-heads, and driving a Mercedes that you can’t afford.

Maybe it just comes down to mathematics. There’s not a whole lot of gay people in the world, so it follows that the percentage of gay people in your friendship-pool should be smaller.

I hate bear411 not sure why everyone loves it so much. I prefer bigmusclebear.com. Of course it’s more fun to just hang out at the Lonstar

Join Fridae.com!

You’ll feel loved.

I tried making a profile on bear411 once - I was subsequently denied(gay asian male) and was prompted to try making a profile on gay411 instead. Kinda makes me sad that i’m not allowed in the party (not that the party’s that great, but it’d be nice to know I’m invited).

I agree with David - there are clique-queens everywhere. I’d consider my group of friends “mixed”, meaning there’s no real common physical features. Every now and then, an all-asian clique will pass us in the bars, and they’ll look at me like I don’t belong. Happens quite often, wherever I go, as long as I stand out in the crowd (leather bar, bear event, etc).

I’ve slowly come to accept it, although every now and then, I just wish I didn’t have to stand out just because of the way I look.

When I was in the closet and just peeking out I sort of thought the bear thing was my salvation. It seemed like it was for “regular guys” who looked and acted like the guy next door. Instead I found there are just as many shallow douchebags among the bears as there are among any other group. Fortunately there are also a few that are awesome who make up for the rest. If we’re ever in the same city it would be fun to introduce you to thm

Long time reader, first time commenting. You rock and I cower in your awesomeness of blogosphere along with joe.my.god and centerofgravitas to name a few.

I have to comment because I’ve had the same problems with 411. I absolutely hate that site because I tried 3 times to get a profile. I got some answer about something about my pics weren’t clear or had two people in them. I only got a profile after my partner wrote my profile, posted my pics, named me with cub in my name, wrote in there nothing about being partnered, and said how much I loved bears and wanted to eff bears and cubs all night long. So finally, I got a profile. The only reason I’m on there is because a lot of my friends are there. I refuse to pay for the service. All my friends are “buddied” so I can chat with them on “off” days.

I’ll have to put my own blog about this. I’ll probably get deleted afterwards.

After a couple failed registrations and a little bit of photoshop, I was able to finally get an account at Bear411.

Never thought the problem was *this* big.

Guess it’s time to roll a new Bear chat site?

Is it just irony that your tags for this post are “uncategorized-gay-asian”?

BTW…everyone I know that hates bear411 are cancelling their accounts and moving to bearciti. Check it out!

Yeah, Gay people eat their young -and not a good way. Sorry about all the trouble you had-Mike

According to Wikipedia: “The bear community is a masculinist subculture in the gay community. Bears are usually mature gay or bisexual men with hairy bodies and facial hair; some are heavy-set, but that is not a requirement. Bears often exhibit an outwardly masculine appearance. Some bears place great importance on presenting a hyper-masculine image and shun interaction with men who display effeminate style and mannerisms. Other bears do not.”There is much debate in the gay community as to the definition of a bear: some say anyone who identifies himself as a bear is one, while others argue that bears must have certain physical characteristics–such as a hairy chest and face–and a certain mode of dress and behavior.”
No surprise, I still don’t get it. All I gotta say about this post is any ’society’ or ‘club’ that won’t accept someone as unique, awesome, funny and cute as Ernie can go screw themselves.

I definitely feel the same way about not feeling liek I as “part” of the gay community. I too have actually felt closer to the bear community.

And I too, was a gay asian who was rejected by bear411. I thought that I was ugly…

It made for a sad week.

I can’t decide if being bisexual is better or worse. I guess it’s better because I can just *expect* that a lot of gay men will hate or look right through me, as opposed to thinking “I’m gay, they’re gay, why don’t they see me?” And there is a bisexual community, and it’s probably my own fault that I really don’t like or feel part of it at all. They at least are welcoming.

I seem to have a knack for attracting guys who are into bears. Generally speaking, I’m not into bears at all, and can’t really relate to the “you must look exactly like me in order to flip my switch” mentality.

I’m sorry to hear that you had problems as well. It makes me sad and angry to hear that there are so many other asians out there that are having a problem getting an account on Bear411. David, the webmaster of BearCiti, is really nice. Definitely check out his site.

I can completely relate to your token asian guy comment because I’m that guy in my group.

Thanks for adding a link to my blog by the way.

Jeff

bearlix.com is new, and has a non-discrimination policy. As long as you’re over 21, you’re in.

Ernie, I feel the same way about the lesbian community. I don’t fit the perfect mold of the andro dyke, skinny, with piercings and tattoos - and so feel like a damn sore thumb. Very frustrating.

I was gonna put this long rambling post about Asian bears and that community until I realized it probably makes more sense just to talk about my own experience.

Since I’m also a fat gay Asian guy, I can relate to a lot of what you’re saying–we don’t exactly fit the stereotypes of what GAMs should be, and yet, the alternatives aren’t exactly palatable either. I’ve always found it strange to be fetishized–whether it be because of my ethnicity, or my looks, or my weight. Luckily, I’ve been able to find a community of good friends where that isn’t that big of a deal. We’re all a bunch of outsiders who are as comfortable in the non-white parts of SF (meaning every other frickin’ part of the City) as well as in the Castro, and who can make fun of all the shit that happens in all those neighborhoods.

It’s also made me realize that regardless of who we are, and whether or not we fit the stereotypes, is that we have to be happy in our skin, and find people who accept us for who we are. I don’t like identifying with a lot of the gay communities because of all the constant demarcations that are drawn up–based on ethnicity, looks, weight, etc. And yet, I find that finding people who are looking for those demarcations makes it extremely convenient and efficient if I wanna get laid.

So it’s a double edged sword–I recognize that because of our society, we’re never gonna be truly accepted by the “gay community”, whatever the hell that is. As long as you’re accepted by who you term your community, that’s what’s most important.

One of the disappointing things about being grown up is finding out that most of the social stupidity of junior high and high school still roams out in the big wide world.

I have had several situations happen to me in recent years while out dancing, at grad school, and among certain folks in the web community, where I was pushed out due to the fact that either I didn’t fit in with the cool 30-somethings or I did not follow the rules (said or unsaid) or I wasn’t good enough by someone else’s standards*…. who knows why. As it happens and as one sees high school clique games played out all over again 10, 20 years later the hurt still hurts.

I figure half the battle is showing up, smiling, and then finding the other folk who have been shoved out and hopefully one meets some cool, intelligent people that way.

;o)

Hey Ernie,

I’ve enjoyed reading your blog for a while, I think you’re so funny…

It’s too bad the bear community won’t let you in - I really like their flag!

Ah well, rejection is everywhere…

take care & keep your spirits up.
bb

Is there such a thing as a gay geeks group? That would be my thing, if I was gay… Hmm…I have to know… I ask google now.

hmmm… I just don’t see you as part of the bear community. Actually, none of my gay friends would be part of the bear community either.

Since there are specific physical characteristics to being a bear, why is anyone surprised when people who don’t meet those characteristics are turned down for the clubs? I guess I just don’t get it…

but then again I’ve never “gotten” the whole bear thing anyway…

Oh Ern, your straight female friends have always felt a little helpless in this department. Hug!

What about being discriminatory against other asians? Racism or not or conscious or not for that matter - we felt a bit of a discriminatory act about you as well. A friend and I tried an experiment wherein the two of us - one asian and one caucasian on the same week (a couple of weeks ago) requested to link back from one of the blog directories to your site and you’ve only accepted the caucasian one and not the asian one? Does that amount to a similar complaint like this? Then on top of that you’ve been emailing the Caucasian one (they’re boyfriends btw). Just wondering. We have no problems with having friends, asians or not, bears or not, but when one discusses potential discrimination about subculture issues, wouldn’t you want that same person to respect others in a manner above what is being complained about?

if they’re going to limit who can register, they should at least publicly say who they accept. i’m kinda hairy (in all the right places ;), can i get in?

Being a stocky “white” hairy gay guy I always found trouble being accepted in my own community by all the body fascists. Someone suggested I try Bear411 and I was denied a membership as well. No reason was given, but someone told me that because I submitted a photo with my face shaved I was denied. Apparently shaving your face is considered heresy by many in the so called accepting bear community. I shave cause its grey and I’m only 39 and I’m not ready to look 50, its hard enough to get anyone to not consider you an old troll after 35. Damned if you do damned if you don’t.
Welcome to Vancouver Ernie, perhaps we can get together sometime and snicker at the packs of Power Puff girls.

actually, if one looks at the testimonials that the webmaster of bear411 has up as a response… one sees a gallery of white bears….

A few days ago I attended a new year’s party for a bear club in Taipei, and I was the only non-ethnically Asian person there. I had a great time.

Its website is at http://taiwanbear.net/ if you’re interested.

Thomas:

a) Ernie is solidly committed to Asian issues and has LOTS of Asian friends (I’m one of them)—go browse through his archives if you don’t believe me;
b) like many other old school bloggers (myself included), Ernie doesn’t do reciprocal links because he gets emailed A TON, he only links to and responds to what he finds authentically interesting, which leads me to the conclusion:
c) if he didn’t link to your site, it’s probably boring.

Clearly you have issues both with your friend and with yourself. Your time would be better served dealing with them instead of passively aggressively foisting them onto someone else.

I was out taking pictures near some gay bars in Taipei a few weeks ago and some bears (excuse me, Pandas, as they apparently prefer to be called here) said I was too small in Taiwanese. Since I’m 5′10″. white and not exactly skinny like the rest of Taiwan, I was really confused. I thought it was funny and the pandas all giggled after the one had said that. So um, I’m too small for some pandas in Asia… not that I was really looking, you know, but you get the point.
In the same place, last night, two acquaintances called me fat in two seperate occasions in front of other people. What gives?

I suppose it’s in the eye of the beholder. XD

Sorry to hear that you’ve had some race-based problems. As a visible minority myself, I can really relate to that. I do try to be positive about the situation though and there are people that will be my friends.

I also note that you took the time to state some negative gay stereotypes (half of them are drunk or high or breaking up with each other on their cellphones, and they’re all catty ).

Sounds like there is room for the people you encounted and also you to do a bit of learning.

I for one LOVE Ernie, no matter what people like Thomas say…

I don’t even want to know what Ernie’s bad side is like…..

Trust me, Jaisne, in the Castro, some stereotypes are true for some of the people. And when is “drunk” or “high” or “catty” negatives? (Breaking up on their cellphones, well… I share Kelly’s opinion on that.)

“And since when,” I meant to type. Hahaha, whee.

Um, as a gay Black guy who has a bunch of “bear” friends, I tried to get on that site too…

I never got approved and this was over a year ago. Sad to see that it’s still happening. It’s especially difficult when it seems like ALL of your friends can get on there, but you can’t.

I remember being up at Giacc’s in the city and everyone was talking about bear411 guys and I couldn’t cuz I couldn’t get a membership.

*THE POINT* is that I sure didn’t meet you, or Royce or Bel or anyone who means much to me through Bear411 and I think I did really well.

You don’t need it at all. I agree it feels good to belong, but you have got waaaaay too much spunk for some guy search engine. Also, up there in your new territory, go to a men’s group at the local center.

You never know who you will meet.

Hey, do you like to sing?
Join the Lesbian/Gay Chorus and hang out with fun queers, many of whom embrace the geek, some of whom are bears on Thursday nights. We have a huge amount of low-key, non-cliquey fun.
http://www.lgcsf.org

And of course there is the Gay Men’s Chorus for larger numbers of boy-only singing on Monday nights.
http://www.sfgmc.org

I had no idea the bears were so organized. Bearciti? Bear411? Buffalo Bear Trap?! Good grief.

Whatevs. Gay/Straight, White/Asian, Body hair/smooth, there are good and bad people everywhere. The important thing to know, Ernie, is you are of the good ones.

Hey there,

I’ve been reading your blog for quite some time. Even got other people to read it. One of my coworkers got her boyfriend worried because she came home so late reading it for the first time. Anyhow. I’m trying to start up a “community” here in LA for EXACTLY what you (and others) it seems is going through. Will you email me for some advice? I would really appreciate it. I have gotten some great responses while hanging in WeHo.

xoxo,

Lizziepoo

i was recently talking to someone (gay asian male) who said that he thinks racism is worse in the gay community, esp. in the castro scene. wasn’t there a bar (badlands?) that openly didn’t admit black men??

anyway, i don’t know why, but something resonated with me about feeling like an outsider within in “your” community. i’ve felt on the outskirts of various scenes i tenuously belong to, and i have so many gay asian friends who def. do not belong to that cliquey gay castro scene.

Ditto, and thank you for posting, it was nice to know I’m not the only one who feels this way.

I have a group of very close gay friends without any common denominator (each of them would belong in a different subgroup, if we were into cliques) and it’s this diversity that makes it even more interesting. My partner is a bear, I would be considered a cub, and being new to the gay world I’ve found out that bear groups are like any other (I guess I was expecting an instant belonging and everyone-is-awesome phenomenon)… which is ok, it just sometimes takes time to find those few great men. Have a good one!
For the record: I’m not asian, just generic white male, so my only familiarity of being out of place comes from being a recent US transplant, so can I really say I know how you feel? Eh, that’s debatable. Still, bear hugs from me.

I just have to say that my husband of 8 years is asian and I, we never knew about this. I immediately took down my profile and sent messages to people I chatted with. Of course those messages never made it. It makes me furious.

dude, i am right there with you. i do not know why, but i have tried over 5 times to get on that site over a couple years span. i am a skinny white guy that like the bigger guys. alot of the guys on that site like the skinny guys, so to keep his people happy, shouldnt skinny people be accepted too? i have 1 friend in particular that has gone through like 10 accounts on there and been approved for each one. he is a young white chubby dude. whats wrong with this picture?

same deal here, man. rejected (i’m asian) but was kindly invited to join gay411.com — a community that, unlike us, accepts everyone!

as someone who was just then beginning to come to terms with and explore his sexuality, not only were bear411’s exclusionary politics a blow to the ego, but equally appalling was that i (a person, any person) could be deferred to a more pluralistic, heterogenous community (gay411) by the figurehead of the online bear world — a community supposedly founded as a haven for non-normative, non-hegemonic queer identities.

i’m thrilled that the bear community is finally beginning to respond to the overt descrimination, and i hope this signals a concerted effort to revive the ideals that, even in their present dilapidated shape, still inspires outsiders to long for a day of inclusion

Bonsoir!
Don’t feel that you are alone! Though I am not asian, or a bear, I definately don’t fit with the queens and much prefer to be around my straight guy and girlfriends. I guess there are some of us whom will never be part of that scene, and we shouldn’t have to! Keep your few gay friends close, keep your straight ones closer.
C-G

Who cares about Castro the guys are more fun in SOMA anyway. Well at least
they were b4 so much of it was shut down Im no longer in SF but my first memory of Castro is the “Pendulum” they were playing some truly sad sounding Gladys Knight and it was clearly the “black bar”. Wow that stunk. Id driven 3000 miles from DC in hopes that Id get away from “black” or “white” bars. Ive been VERY dissappointed by gays with regard to racism and bears most of all. That I love all that white trashy goodness shouldnt be a crime but if I didn’t “hate myself” b4 I tried hanging out with these folks I’m now left wondering about it a lot. I used to think they just *looked* like they had gun racks now I believe I was mistaken. Anyway last week or so I was listening to Yoko Ono while sitting in gay.com’s bear channel and mentioned it as an aside. Immediately some guy spews basically “chinks yuck” kind of stuff then jumped all over himself when
he realized he was “in public” I guess.
To be fair once I decided to ignore the
guys who “run” the room and just msg
random guys thinks turned out friendlier but still….
Sorry if I’ve offended folks but hey … Im glad this blog is here. Keep up the good work.

How sad and scary. I’ve just made a link to this post from my bearwww profile (huntergreencub) - hope you don’t mind.

Actually, what sucks about bear411.com is that there’s actually a “chaser” category. So this implies if you are not a bear (however one defines it) you should be able to register. Honestly, any site that “restricts” membership in this way shouldn’t even be solicited by the gay community.

Wow! I thought it was just me. If you aren’t a hairy, bearded, hugh man I guess you can’t get on. I was ‘rejected’ and sent to gay411. I wanted to tell them to go fuck themselves. Being a bear is as much of a state of mind as it is being hairy and having a beard (can’t grow one, can I help that?). Muscled and smooth I guess just wasn’t ‘bear’ enough for bear411

[…] Some sort of Caveman Bearlesque spectacle. […]

Yeah. I’ve had the same problems at times, but a lot of bears are pretty welcoming. Gay men can be very cliquish. As a kind of twinky guy who pretty much dates bear/cub types exclusively, I’ve often felt resentment from other twinky guys when I’ve brought a bear along to a twinky place. You can see it in their eyes, “What are you doing?” and “Such a waste. Tragic, really.” I’ve felt much more welcome at bear events (big fan of Bearracuda).

Anyhow, I’d recommend BiggerCity. It’s much more chaser-friendly.

[…] I hung out with the bear subculture for a while, but that didn’t make things any better - an experience with discrimination there is one of the reasons why I started […]

[…] I hung out with the bear subculture for a while, but that didn’t make things any better - an experience with discrimination there is one of the reasons why I started […]

Ever go to a bear event? Nothing but fat white guys. You might as well call it a gay Klu Klux Klan rally.

Thanks so much for your post. I’m a chaser so I thought I’d be welcome…instead I get this cryptic message that I can’t reply to (it bounces) stating that “my profile cannot be approved.” No explanation, no support, nothing. And this turd has the temerity to create a “fan” site called bear411love.com in which all these guys (understandably) say how much they appreciate the site. Well thanks for providing a voice to those of us who were dissed without even the kindness of an explanatory message. I’ll stick with biggercity and other personals sites and will advise others to avoid bear411 entirely.